diff --git a/ChangeLog b/ChangeLog
index 7bd10158..20144c67 100644
--- a/ChangeLog
+++ b/ChangeLog
@@ -24,6 +24,8 @@
   behaviour with alpha channels
 - improve bioformats support with read and write of tiff subifd pyramids
 - thumbnail exploits subifd pyramids
+- handle all EXIF orientation cases, deprecate 
+  vips_autorot_get_angle() [Elad-Laufer]
 
 24/4/20 started 8.9.3
 - better iiif tile naming [IllyaMoskvin]
diff --git a/libvips/conversion/autorot.c b/libvips/conversion/autorot.c
index 344165b2..b297dc95 100644
--- a/libvips/conversion/autorot.c
+++ b/libvips/conversion/autorot.c
@@ -8,6 +8,7 @@
  * 	- don't remove orientation if it's one of the cases we don't handle
  * 10/5/20
  * 	- handle mirrored images
+ * 	- deprecate vips_autorot_get_angle()
  */
 
 /*
@@ -56,8 +57,7 @@ typedef struct _VipsAutorot {
 	VipsImage *in;
 
 	VipsAngle angle;
-
-    gboolean flip;
+	gboolean flip;
 
 } VipsAutorot;
 
@@ -65,51 +65,6 @@ typedef VipsConversionClass VipsAutorotClass;
 
 G_DEFINE_TYPE( VipsAutorot, vips_autorot, VIPS_TYPE_CONVERSION );
 
-/**
- * vips_autorot_get_angle:
- * @image: image to fetch orientation from
- *
- * Examine the metadata on @im and return the #VipsAngle to rotate by to turn
- * the image upright. 
- *
- * See also: vips_autorot(). 
- *
- * Returns: the #VipsAngle to rotate by to make the image upright.
- */
-VipsAngle
-vips_autorot_get_angle( VipsImage *im )
-{
-	int orientation;
-	VipsAngle angle;
-
-	if( !vips_image_get_typeof( im, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION ) ||
-		vips_image_get_int( im, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION, &orientation ) )
-		orientation = 1;
-
-	switch( orientation ) {
-	case 6:
-		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D90;
-		break;
-
-	case 8:
-		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D270;
-		break;
-
-	case 3:
-		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D180;
-		break;
-
-	default:
-		/* Other values do rotate + mirror, don't bother handling them
-		 * though, how common can mirroring be.
-		 */
-		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D0;
-		break;
-	}
-
-	return( angle ); 
-}
-
 static void *
 vips_autorot_remove_angle_sub( VipsImage *image, 
 	const char *field, GValue *value, void *my_data )
@@ -130,14 +85,14 @@ vips_autorot_remove_angle_sub( VipsImage *image,
  * vips_autorot_remove_angle: (method)
  * @image: image to remove orientation from
  *
- * Remove the orientation tag on @image. Also remove any exif orientation tags. 
- *
- * See also: vips_autorot_get_angle(). 
+ * Remove the orientation tag on @image. Also remove any exif orientation tags.
+ * You must vips_copy() the image before calling this function since it
+ * modifies metadata.
  */
 void
 vips_autorot_remove_angle( VipsImage *image )
 {
-	(void) vips_image_remove( image, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION ); 
+	(void) vips_image_remove( image, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION );
 	(void) vips_image_map( image, vips_autorot_remove_angle_sub, NULL );
 }
 
@@ -151,88 +106,82 @@ vips_autorot_build( VipsObject *object )
 	if( VIPS_OBJECT_CLASS( vips_autorot_parent_class )->build( object ) )
 		return( -1 );
 	
-    int orientation = 0;
-    VipsAngle angle;
-    gboolean flip = FALSE;
-    
-    if( !vips_image_get_typeof( autorot->in, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION ) ||
-        vips_image_get_int( autorot->in, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION, &orientation ) )
-        orientation = 1;
+	VipsAngle angle;
+	gboolean flip;
+	VipsImage *in;
 
-    switch( orientation ) {
+	in = autorot->in;
 
-    case 2:
-        angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D0;
-        flip = TRUE;
-        break;
+	switch( vips_image_get_orientation( in ) ) {
+	case 2:
+		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D0;
+		flip = TRUE;
+		break;
 
-    case 4:
-        flip = TRUE;
+	case 3:
+		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D180;
+		flip = FALSE;
+		break;
 
-    case 3:
-        angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D180;
-        break;
-        
-    case 5:
-        flip = TRUE;
+	case 4:
+		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D180;
+		flip = TRUE;
+		break;
 
-    case 6:
-        angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D90;
-        break;
-        
-    case 7:
-        flip = TRUE;
+	case 5:
+		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D90;
+		flip = TRUE;
+		break;
 
-    case 8:
-        angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D270;
-        break;
-        
-    default:
-        angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D0;
-        flip = FALSE;
-        break;
-        
-    }
+	case 6:
+		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D90;
+		flip = FALSE;
+		break;
 
-    g_object_set( object,
-                  "angle", angle,
-                  NULL );
+	case 7:
+		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D270;
+		flip = TRUE;
+		break;
 
-    g_object_set( object,
-                  "flip", flip,
-                  NULL );
+	case 8:
+		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D270;
+		flip = FALSE;
+		break;
 
-    if( angle != VIPS_ANGLE_D0 && flip) {
-        if( vips_rot( autorot->in, &t[0], angle, NULL ) )
-            return( -1 );
+	case 1:
+	default:
+		angle = VIPS_ANGLE_D0;
+		flip = FALSE;
+		break;
 
-        if( vips_flip( t[0], &t[1], VIPS_DIRECTION_HORIZONTAL, NULL ) )
-            return ( -1 );
+	}
 
-        if( vips_copy( t[1], &t[2], NULL ) )
-            return( -1 );
-    }
-    else if( angle != VIPS_ANGLE_D0 ) {
-        if( vips_rot( autorot->in, &t[0], angle, NULL))
-            return ( -1 );
+	g_object_set( object,
+		"angle", angle,
+		"flip", flip,
+		NULL );
 
-        if( vips_copy( t[0], &t[2], NULL))
-            return ( -1 );
-    }
-    else if( flip ) {
-        if( vips_flip( autorot->in, &t[0], VIPS_DIRECTION_HORIZONTAL, NULL ) )
-            return ( -1 );
+	if( angle != VIPS_ANGLE_D0 ) {
+		if( vips_rot( in, &t[0], angle, NULL ) )
+			return( -1 );
+		in = t[0];
+	}
 
-        if( vips_copy( t[0], &t[2], NULL ) )
-            return( -1 );
-    } else {
-        if( vips_copy( autorot->in, &t[2], NULL ) )
-            return( -1 );
-    }
+	if( flip ) { 
+		if( vips_flip( in, &t[1], VIPS_DIRECTION_HORIZONTAL, NULL ) )
+			return( -1 );
+		in = t[1];
+	}
 
-    vips_autorot_remove_angle( t[2] );
-    
-	if( vips_image_write( t[2], conversion->out ) )
+	/* We must copy before modifying metadata.
+	 */
+	if( vips_copy( in, &t[2], NULL ) )
+		return( -1 );
+	in = t[2];
+
+	vips_autorot_remove_angle( in );
+
+	if( vips_image_write( in, conversion->out ) )
 		return( -1 );
 
 	return( 0 );
@@ -265,11 +214,11 @@ vips_autorot_class_init( VipsAutorotClass *class )
 		VIPS_TYPE_ANGLE, VIPS_ANGLE_D0 );
 
     VIPS_ARG_BOOL( class, "flip", 7,
-                   _( "Flip" ),
-                   _( "Whether the image was flipped or not" ),
-                   VIPS_ARGUMENT_OPTIONAL_OUTPUT,
-                   G_STRUCT_OFFSET( VipsAutorot, flip ),
-                    FALSE);
+		_( "Flip" ),
+		_( "Whether the image was flipped or not" ),
+		VIPS_ARGUMENT_OPTIONAL_OUTPUT,
+		G_STRUCT_OFFSET( VipsAutorot, flip ),
+		FALSE );
 }
 
 static void
@@ -288,15 +237,14 @@ vips_autorot_init( VipsAutorot *autorot )
  * Optional arguments:
  *
  * * @angle: output #VipsAngle the image was rotated by
- * * @flip: output whether the image was flipped 
+ * * @flip: output %gboolean whether the image was flipped 
  *
- * Look at the image metadata and rotate the image to make it upright. The
- * #VIPS_META_ORIENTATION tag is removed from @out to prevent accidental 
- * double rotation. 
+ * Look at the image metadata and rotate and flip the image to make it 
+ * upright. The #VIPS_META_ORIENTATION tag is removed from @out to prevent 
+ * accidental double rotation. 
  *
- * Read @angle to find the amount the image was rotated by.
- *
- * See also: vips_autorot_get_angle(), vips_autorot_remove_angle(), vips_rot().
+ * Read @angle to find the amount the image was rotated by. Read @flip to 
+ * see if the image was also flipped.
  *
  * Returns: 0 on success, -1 on error
  */
diff --git a/libvips/deprecated/rename.c b/libvips/deprecated/rename.c
index 28146b94..ad3eaa22 100644
--- a/libvips/deprecated/rename.c
+++ b/libvips/deprecated/rename.c
@@ -801,3 +801,15 @@ vips_warn( const char *domain, const char *fmt, ... )
 	va_end( ap );
 }
 
+/**
+ * vips_autorot_get_angle:
+ * @image: image to fetch orientation from
+ *
+ * This function is deprecated. Use vips_autorot() instead.
+ */
+VipsAngle
+vips_autorot_get_angle( VipsImage *im )
+{
+	return( VIPS_ANGLE_D0 );
+}
+
diff --git a/libvips/foreign/exif.c b/libvips/foreign/exif.c
index ced41bec..6e6c442d 100644
--- a/libvips/foreign/exif.c
+++ b/libvips/foreign/exif.c
@@ -523,7 +523,8 @@ vips__exif_parse( VipsImage *image )
 		int orientation;
 
 		orientation = atoi( str );
-		if( orientation < 1 || orientation > 8 )
+		if( orientation < 1 || 
+			orientation > 8 )
 			orientation = 1;
 		vips_image_set_int( image, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION, orientation );
 	}
diff --git a/libvips/foreign/jpeg2vips.c b/libvips/foreign/jpeg2vips.c
index a4d53fd8..26accc40 100644
--- a/libvips/foreign/jpeg2vips.c
+++ b/libvips/foreign/jpeg2vips.c
@@ -830,40 +830,6 @@ read_jpeg_generate( VipsRegion *or,
 	return( 0 );
 }
 
-/* Auto-rotate, if rotate_image is set.
- */
-static VipsImage *
-read_jpeg_rotate( VipsObject *process, VipsImage *im )
-{
-	VipsImage **t = (VipsImage **) vips_object_local_array( process, 3 );
-	VipsAngle angle = vips_autorot_get_angle( im );
-
-	if( angle != VIPS_ANGLE_D0 ) {
-		/* Need to copy to memory or disc, we have to stay seq.
-		 */
-		const guint64 image_size = VIPS_IMAGE_SIZEOF_IMAGE( im );
-		const guint64 disc_threshold = vips_get_disc_threshold();
-
-		if( image_size > disc_threshold ) 
-			t[0] = vips_image_new_temp_file( "%s.v" );
-		else
-			t[0] = vips_image_new_memory();
-
-		if( vips_image_write( im, t[0] ) ||
-			vips_rot( t[0], &t[1], angle, NULL ) )
-			return( NULL );
-		im = t[1];
-
-		if( vips_copy( im, &t[2], NULL ) )
-			return( NULL );
-		im = t[2];
-
-		vips_autorot_remove_angle( im ); 
-	}
-
-	return( im );
-}
-
 /* Read a cinfo to a VIPS image.
  */
 static int
@@ -871,7 +837,7 @@ read_jpeg_image( ReadJpeg *jpeg, VipsImage *out )
 {
 	struct jpeg_decompress_struct *cinfo = &jpeg->cinfo;
 	VipsImage **t = (VipsImage **) 
-		vips_object_local_array( VIPS_OBJECT( out ), 3 );
+		vips_object_local_array( VIPS_OBJECT( out ), 4 );
 
 	VipsImage *im;
 
@@ -902,10 +868,16 @@ read_jpeg_image( ReadJpeg *jpeg, VipsImage *out )
 		vips_extract_area( t[1], &t[2], 
 			0, 0, jpeg->output_width, jpeg->output_height, NULL ) )
 		return( -1 );
-
 	im = t[2];
-	if( jpeg->autorotate )
-		im = read_jpeg_rotate( VIPS_OBJECT( out ), im );
+
+	if( jpeg->autorotate &&
+		vips_image_get_orientation( im ) != 1 ) {
+		/* This will go via a huge memory buffer :-( 
+		 */
+		if( vips_autorot( im, &t[3], NULL ) )
+			return( -1 );
+		im = t[3];
+	}
 
 	if( vips_image_write( im, out ) )
 		return( -1 );
@@ -948,15 +920,9 @@ vips__jpeg_read( ReadJpeg *jpeg, VipsImage *out, gboolean header_only )
 
 		/* Swap width and height if we're going to rotate this image.
 		 */
-		if( jpeg->autorotate ) { 
-			VipsAngle angle = vips_autorot_get_angle( out ); 
-
-			if( angle == VIPS_ANGLE_D90 || 
-				angle == VIPS_ANGLE_D270 )
-				VIPS_SWAP( int, out->Xsize, out->Ysize );
-
-			/* We won't be returning an orientation tag.
-			 */
+		if( jpeg->autorotate &&
+			vips_image_get_orientation_swap( out ) ) {
+			VIPS_SWAP( int, out->Xsize, out->Ysize );
 			vips_autorot_remove_angle( out ); 
 		}
 	}
diff --git a/libvips/foreign/tiff2vips.c b/libvips/foreign/tiff2vips.c
index b622d4e2..34fefd75 100644
--- a/libvips/foreign/tiff2vips.c
+++ b/libvips/foreign/tiff2vips.c
@@ -1862,59 +1862,6 @@ rtiff_seq_stop( void *seq, void *a, void *b )
 	return( 0 );
 }
 
-/* Auto-rotate handling. 
- */
-static int
-rtiff_autorotate( Rtiff *rtiff, VipsImage *in, VipsImage **out )
-{
-	VipsAngle angle = vips_autorot_get_angle( in );
-
-	if( rtiff->autorotate &&
-		angle != VIPS_ANGLE_D0 ) { 
-		/* Need to copy to memory or disc, we have to stay seq.
-		 */
-		const guint64 image_size = VIPS_IMAGE_SIZEOF_IMAGE( in );
-		const guint64 disc_threshold = vips_get_disc_threshold();
-
-		VipsImage *im;
-		VipsImage *x;
-
-		if( image_size > disc_threshold ) 
-			im = vips_image_new_temp_file( "%s.v" );
-		else
-			im = vips_image_new_memory();
-
-		if( vips_image_write( in, im ) ) {
-			g_object_unref( im );
-			return( -1 );
-		}
-
-		if( vips_rot( im, &x, angle, NULL ) ) {
-			g_object_unref( im );
-			return( -1 );
-		}
-		g_object_unref( im );
-		im = x;
-
-		if( vips_copy( im, out, NULL ) ) {
-			g_object_unref( im );
-			return( -1 );
-		}
-		g_object_unref( im );
-
-		/* We must remove the tag to prevent accidental
-		 * double rotations.
-		 */
-		vips_autorot_remove_angle( *out ); 
-	}
-	else {
-		*out = in;
-		g_object_ref( in ); 
-	}
-
-	return( 0 );
-}
-
 /* Unpremultiply associative alpha, if any.
  */
 static int
@@ -1952,6 +1899,8 @@ rtiff_read_tilewise( Rtiff *rtiff, VipsImage *out )
 	VipsImage **t = (VipsImage **) 
 		vips_object_local_array( VIPS_OBJECT( out ), 4 );
 
+	VipsImage *in;
+
 #ifdef DEBUG
 	printf( "tiff2vips: rtiff_read_tilewise\n" );
 #endif /*DEBUG*/
@@ -1991,21 +1940,31 @@ rtiff_read_tilewise( Rtiff *rtiff, VipsImage *out )
 	 */
         vips_image_pipelinev( t[0], VIPS_DEMAND_STYLE_THINSTRIP, NULL );
 
-	if( vips_image_generate( t[0], 
-		rtiff_seq_start, rtiff_fill_region, rtiff_seq_stop, 
-		rtiff, NULL ) )
-		return( -1 );
-
-	/* Copy to out, adding a cache. Enough tiles for two complete rows.
+	/* Generate to out, adding a cache. Enough tiles for two complete rows.
 	 */
-	if( vips_tilecache( t[0], &t[1],
-		"tile_width", tile_width,
-		"tile_height", tile_height,
-		"max_tiles", 2 * (1 + t[0]->Xsize / tile_width),
-		NULL ) ||
-		rtiff_autorotate( rtiff, t[1], &t[2] ) ||
-		rtiff_unpremultiply( rtiff, t[2], &t[3] ) ||
-		vips_image_write( t[3], out ) )
+	if( 
+		vips_image_generate( t[0], 
+			rtiff_seq_start, rtiff_fill_region, rtiff_seq_stop, 
+			rtiff, NULL ) ||
+		vips_tilecache( t[0], &t[1],
+			"tile_width", tile_width,
+			"tile_height", tile_height,
+			"max_tiles", 2 * (1 + t[0]->Xsize / tile_width),
+			NULL ) ||
+		rtiff_unpremultiply( rtiff, t[1], &t[2] ) )
+		return( -1 );
+	in = t[2];
+
+	/* Only do this if we have to.
+	 */
+	if( rtiff->autorotate &&
+		vips_image_get_orientation( in ) != 1 ) {
+		if( vips_autorot( in, &t[3], NULL ) )
+			return( -1 );
+		in = t[3];
+	}
+
+	if( vips_image_write( in, out ) )
 		return( -1 );
 
 	return( 0 );
@@ -2226,6 +2185,8 @@ rtiff_read_stripwise( Rtiff *rtiff, VipsImage *out )
 	VipsImage **t = (VipsImage **) 
 		vips_object_local_array( VIPS_OBJECT( out ), 4 );
 
+	VipsImage *in;
+
 #ifdef DEBUG
 	printf( "tiff2vips: rtiff_read_stripwise\n" );
 #endif /*DEBUG*/
@@ -2301,9 +2262,20 @@ rtiff_read_stripwise( Rtiff *rtiff, VipsImage *out )
 		vips_sequential( t[0], &t[1], 
 			"tile_height", rtiff->header.read_height,
 			NULL ) ||
-		rtiff_autorotate( rtiff, t[1], &t[2] ) ||
-		rtiff_unpremultiply( rtiff, t[2], &t[3] ) ||
-		vips_image_write( t[3], out ) )
+		rtiff_unpremultiply( rtiff, t[1], &t[2] ) )
+		return( -1 );
+	in = t[2];
+
+	/* Only do this if we have to.
+	 */
+	if( rtiff->autorotate &&
+		vips_image_get_orientation( in ) != 1 ) {
+		if( vips_autorot( in, &t[3], NULL ) )
+			return( -1 );
+		in = t[3];
+	}
+
+	if( vips_image_write( in, out ) )
 		return( -1 );
 
 	return( 0 );
@@ -2683,29 +2655,6 @@ rtiff_header_read_all( Rtiff *rtiff )
 	return( 0 );
 }
 
-/* On a header-only read, we can just swap width/height if orientation is 6 or
- * 8. 
- */
-static void
-vips__tiff_read_header_orientation( Rtiff *rtiff, VipsImage *out )
-{
-	int orientation;
-
-	if( rtiff->autorotate &&
-		vips_image_get_typeof( out, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION ) &&
-		!vips_image_get_int( out, 
-			VIPS_META_ORIENTATION, &orientation ) ) {
-		if( orientation == 3 || 
-			orientation == 6 )
-			VIPS_SWAP( int, out->Xsize, out->Ysize );
-
-		/* We must remove VIPS_META_ORIENTATION to prevent accidental
-		 * double rotations.
-		 */
-		vips_image_remove( out, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION );
-	}
-}
-
 typedef gboolean (*TiffPropertyFn)( TIFF *tif );
 
 static gboolean
@@ -2755,7 +2704,11 @@ vips__tiff_read_header_source( VipsSource *source, VipsImage *out,
 	if( rtiff_set_header( rtiff, out ) )
 		return( -1 );
 
-	vips__tiff_read_header_orientation( rtiff, out ); 
+	if( rtiff->autorotate &&
+		vips_image_get_orientation_swap( out ) ) {
+		VIPS_SWAP( int, out->Xsize, out->Ysize );
+		vips_autorot_remove_angle( out );
+	}
 
 	/* We never call vips_source_decode() since we need to be able to
 	 * seek() the whole way through the file. Just minimise instead,
diff --git a/libvips/include/vips/almostdeprecated.h b/libvips/include/vips/almostdeprecated.h
index 26d90937..1bde7c84 100644
--- a/libvips/include/vips/almostdeprecated.h
+++ b/libvips/include/vips/almostdeprecated.h
@@ -292,6 +292,8 @@ void vips_info( const char *domain, const char *fmt, ... )
 	__attribute__((format(printf, 2, 3)));
 void vips_vinfo( const char *domain, const char *fmt, va_list ap );
 
+VipsAngle vips_autorot_get_angle( VipsImage *image );
+
 #ifdef __cplusplus
 }
 #endif /*__cplusplus*/
diff --git a/libvips/include/vips/conversion.h b/libvips/include/vips/conversion.h
index 86643e9f..9dfaa521 100644
--- a/libvips/include/vips/conversion.h
+++ b/libvips/include/vips/conversion.h
@@ -192,7 +192,6 @@ int vips_rot270( VipsImage *in, VipsImage **out, ... )
 	__attribute__((sentinel));
 int vips_rot45( VipsImage *in, VipsImage **out, ... )
 	__attribute__((sentinel));
-VipsAngle vips_autorot_get_angle( VipsImage *image );
 void vips_autorot_remove_angle( VipsImage *image );
 int vips_autorot( VipsImage *in, VipsImage **out, ... )
 	__attribute__((sentinel));
diff --git a/libvips/include/vips/header.h b/libvips/include/vips/header.h
index d4d09037..11e9ea3f 100644
--- a/libvips/include/vips/header.h
+++ b/libvips/include/vips/header.h
@@ -179,6 +179,8 @@ double vips_image_get_offset( const VipsImage *image );
 int vips_image_get_page_height( VipsImage *image );
 int vips_image_get_n_pages( VipsImage *image );
 int vips_image_get_n_subifds( VipsImage *image );
+int vips_image_get_orientation( VipsImage *image );
+gboolean vips_image_get_orientation_swap( VipsImage *image );
 const void *vips_image_get_data( VipsImage *image );
 
 void vips_image_init_fields( VipsImage *image, 
diff --git a/libvips/iofuncs/header.c b/libvips/iofuncs/header.c
index 230dfeb7..4109b5d4 100644
--- a/libvips/iofuncs/header.c
+++ b/libvips/iofuncs/header.c
@@ -863,6 +863,47 @@ vips_image_get_n_subifds( VipsImage *image )
 	return(	0 );
 }
 
+/**
+ * vips_image_get_orientation: (method)
+ * @image: image to get from
+ *
+ * Fetch and sanity-check #VIPS_META_ORIENTATION. Default to 1 (no rotate, 
+ * no flip) if not present or crazy.
+ *
+ * Returns: the image orientation.
+ */
+int
+vips_image_get_orientation( VipsImage *image )
+{
+	int orientation;
+
+	if( vips_image_get_typeof( image, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION ) &&
+		!vips_image_get_int( image, VIPS_META_ORIENTATION, 
+			&orientation ) &&
+		orientation > 0 &&
+		orientation < 9 )
+		return( orientation );
+
+	return( 1 );
+}
+
+/**
+ * vips_image_get_orientation_swap: (method)
+ * @image: image to get from
+ *
+ * Return %TRUE if applying the orientation would swap width and height.
+ *
+ * Returns: if width/height will swap
+ */
+gboolean
+vips_image_get_orientation_swap( VipsImage *image )
+{
+	int orientation = vips_image_get_orientation( image );
+
+	return( orientation >= 5 &&
+		orientation <= 8 );
+}
+
 /**
  * vips_image_get_data: (method)
  * @image: image to get data for
@@ -957,14 +998,11 @@ static int
 meta_cp( VipsImage *dst, const VipsImage *src )
 {
 	if( src->meta ) {
-		/* Loop, copying fields.
-		 */
-		meta_init( dst );
-
 		/* We lock with vips_image_set() to stop races in highly-
 		 * threaded applications.
 		 */
 		g_mutex_lock( vips__meta_lock );
+		meta_init( dst );
 		vips_slist_map2( src->meta_traverse,
 			(VipsSListMap2Fn) meta_cp_field, dst, NULL );
 		g_mutex_unlock( vips__meta_lock );
@@ -1055,8 +1093,6 @@ vips_image_set( VipsImage *image, const char *name, GValue *value )
 	g_assert( name );
 	g_assert( value );
 
-	meta_init( image );
-
 	/* We lock between modifying metadata and copying metadata between
 	 * images, see meta_cp().
 	 *
@@ -1065,6 +1101,7 @@ vips_image_set( VipsImage *image, const char *name, GValue *value )
 	 * highly-threaded applications.
 	 */
 	g_mutex_lock( vips__meta_lock );
+	meta_init( image );
 	(void) meta_new( image, name, value );
 	g_mutex_unlock( vips__meta_lock );
 
diff --git a/libvips/resample/thumbnail.c b/libvips/resample/thumbnail.c
index 25e5beda..25a75135 100644
--- a/libvips/resample/thumbnail.c
+++ b/libvips/resample/thumbnail.c
@@ -116,7 +116,8 @@ typedef struct _VipsThumbnail {
 	int input_width;
 	int input_height;
 	int page_height;
-	VipsAngle angle; 		/* From vips_autorot_get_angle() */
+	int orientation; 		/* From vips_image_get_orientation() */
+	gboolean swap; 			/* If we must swap width / height */
 	int n_pages;			/* Pages in file */
 	int n_loaded_pages;		/* Pages we've loaded from file */
 	int n_subifds;			/* Number of subifds */
@@ -203,7 +204,8 @@ vips_thumbnail_read_header( VipsThumbnail *thumbnail, VipsImage *image )
 {
 	thumbnail->input_width = image->Xsize;
 	thumbnail->input_height = image->Ysize;
-	thumbnail->angle = vips_autorot_get_angle( image );
+	thumbnail->orientation = vips_image_get_orientation( image );
+	thumbnail->swap = vips_image_get_orientation_swap( image );
 	thumbnail->page_height = vips_image_get_page_height( image );
 	thumbnail->n_pages = vips_image_get_n_pages( image );
 	thumbnail->n_subifds = vips_image_get_n_subifds( image );
@@ -390,11 +392,10 @@ static void
 vips_thumbnail_calculate_shrink( VipsThumbnail *thumbnail, 
 	int input_width, int input_height, double *hshrink, double *vshrink )
 {
-	/* If we will be rotating, swap the target width and height.
+	/* If we will be rotating, swap the target width and height. 
 	 */
 	gboolean rotate = 
-		(thumbnail->angle == VIPS_ANGLE_D90 || 
-		 thumbnail->angle == VIPS_ANGLE_D270) &&
+		thumbnail->swap &&
 		thumbnail->auto_rotate;
 	int target_width = rotate ? 
 		thumbnail->height : thumbnail->width;
@@ -831,21 +832,12 @@ vips_thumbnail_build( VipsObject *object )
 	}
 
 	if( thumbnail->auto_rotate &&
-		thumbnail->angle != VIPS_ANGLE_D0 ) {
-		VipsAngle angle = vips_autorot_get_angle( in );
-
-		g_info( "rotating by %s", 
-			vips_enum_nick( VIPS_TYPE_ANGLE, angle ) ); 
-
-		/* Need to copy to memory, we have to stay seq.
-		 */
-		if( !(t[9] = vips_image_copy_memory( in )) ||
-			vips_rot( t[9], &t[10], angle, NULL ) ||
-			vips_copy( t[10], &t[14], NULL ) )
-			return( -1 ); 
+		thumbnail->orientation != 1 ) {
+		g_info( "rotating by EXIF orientation %d", 
+			thumbnail->orientation ); 
+		if( vips_autorot( in, &t[14], NULL ) )
+			return( -1 );
 		in = t[14];
-
-		vips_autorot_remove_angle( in );
 	}
 
 	/* Crop after rotate so we don't need to rotate the crop box.